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Realism vs. more sanitized stories in children's literature

by NewMexicoKid
Posted to Art, Taboos on Fri Dec 19, 2003 at 08:51:34 AM PST
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How much detail should one include in fantasy novels, especially children's fantasy? If one decides to gloss over these details, what is the convention for effectively doing so and not raising questions in the minds of the readers that might snap them out of the narrative?

Some of the favorite stories of my childhood (e.g., C.S. Lewis's Narnia Chronicles, Lloyd Alexander's Prydain Chronicles, Madeleine L'Engle's Wrinkle in Time, and L.F. Baum's Oz series) seemed to gloss over details such as most basic life needs such as food gathering, eating, sleeping, clothing/grooming/bathing and waste elimination. I still enjoy re-reading these stories from time to time. Newer fantasy series like Harry Potter and more adult fantasy works such as Elizabeth Moon's Deed of Paksenarrion seem to have a lot more detail on the minutiae of day-to-day life. For example, in Deed of Paksenarrion, Elizabeth Moon talks about logistics such as having to dig out the "jacks", having to transport, forage and distribute food to troops, and the niceities (or not) of various sleeping arrangements. These details are generally not covered in J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings trilogy. Both works succeeded in entertaining me, but they definitely had different feels to them.

In reviewing my NaNoWriMo'03 work Twilight, my older sister complained about scenes where the main character (a seven year old named Giovanna) spends time dealing with the lack of bathroom facilities or pre-packaged foods in her travels to other worlds. She cites Lewis's Narnia books as a prime example of how fantasy books do not need to delve into such mundane issues (though I recall even there scenes of wrapping up bear meat and later roasting it with apples--perhaps food related details are "ok"?).

How does an author decide what level of detail/realism is appropriate, especially for fantasy novels? Where should the focus of the story be? Can modern works written in styles popular in an earlier time succeed in the market place?

As an example, in Twilight, in some worlds, there aren't flushable toilets or bathrooms. This, to me, seems like a point I would need to address--in reading about the world, wouldn't the reader be curious about details like this? Don't details about how people gather and prepare food, how they bathe (especially in places where water is scarce), and where they sleep help define a new world to the reader? On the other hand, most details such as these are not present in Narnia and that series doesn't suffer for it. How can I reconcile these views?

Some other details for consideration/discussion:

When my young character is traveling to different worlds and encountering different environments, peoples and cultures, it seemed natural to me that she have some concern in each place for how to handle: procurement of food (this is one of the things that varies from world-to-world and helps to illustrate the diversity of what she encounters); preparing and eating that food (it's one thing to gather nuts and berries; but what is "safe" to eat and how can a seven year old make it appetizing?); where to sleep (in one scene, she and the dog crawl beneath the branches of an evergreen tree for some shelter and end up huddling together for warmth; in another, she tries to fall asleep on a rough wooden floor in a tavern); and where to eliminate bodily waste (most of the worlds she visits do not have bathrooms). The last element isn't added for comic effect but simply to emphasize the changes that the main character must make to her life style in order to survive.
In My side of the mountain (a great children's book by Jean Craighead George), Sam, the main character, has to make a life for himself in the wilderness. The author goes into a lot of detail about how he finds and prepares food, how he creates living quarters (in a hollowed out tree), and how he entertains himself. Bodily waste elimination doesn't get mentioned (perhaps there are different levels of taboo behavior).
In Lavondyss (a modern fantasy work about a place where mythological archetypes (mythagoes) wander through a wood and interact with the human heroes), Robert Holdstock goes through great detail that sometimes leaves the reader feeling uncomfortable (such as a scene where a shaman wears the preserved human skin from another character). This work is clearly not intended for children and perhaps Holdstock employs the reader discomfort as a way of showing the strangeness of the realm he has created.

Does what gets included in stories simply depend upon the targeted age of the reader? What makes works such as Narnia and Lord of the Rings, which skip over many of these basic life details, so timelessly classic and effective?

Thanks for your advice/help.

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Realism vs. more sanitized stories in children's literature | 14 comments (7 topical, 0 hidden)

Toilets (3.00/0) (#13)
by triLcat on Thu Oct 07, 2004 at 11:39:03 AM PST

In one of the Beverly Cleary books (I know I know, great works of literature :) )Ramona asks how the characters in some book went to the bathroom...

It's an interesting point. In Stephen King's "On Writing", he mentions that it's not good to tap-dance around bathroom issues.

On the other hand, if it's really not germane to the story, then a bathroom scene is fairly meaningless.

Imagine Cinderella's at the ball, and she goes and takes a leak... it's not the same story. Actually, that could make some interesting twists...
suppose there's a long line in the ladies' room...
does the prince wait outside?
oh boy... the possibilities.

But the question is what story you're telling. Are you telling the story of a girl with a bathroom issue? if so, then by all means, tell it.
If you're telling the story of a fantastic adventure, then don't give the details unless they're part of the story. Prof. Joseph Skibell (Emory University) said that when you're giving details, they should be part of the story. So that if a girl has orange hair, you can say "she ran her fingers through her orange hair, and Joe thought it looked like her hands were on fire. He drew in a sharp breath before passing her the baked potatoes..."
Where "she had orange hair and green eyes, and lots of freckles" is kind of boring.

So authorial decision... are you telling the potty-time story or not?
Harry Potter doesn't take a leak. He goes to the girls' room to plot with his friends. He takes a bath when he needs to find out about the mer-people, but he never just takes a long, leisurely leak...

"Go then, there are other worlds than these." Jake Chambers, The Gunslinger, Stephen King

: including details (3.00/0) (#14)
by janra on Thu Oct 07, 2004 at 04:00:59 PM PST

It's an interesting point. In Stephen King's "On Writing", he mentions that it's not good to tap-dance around bathroom issues.
On the other hand, if it's really not germane to the story, then a bathroom scene is fairly meaningless.
I think that applies to pretty much any detail, not just the toilet. If it doesn't somehow advance the plot or provide necessary characterization, it doesn't belong. If it does, it belongs.
But you (and Stephen King) are right - if a washroom scene is important enough to the plot that it comes up in your writing, don't tap-dance around it. That's a waste of words - and more importantly, your reader's time and attention.
So authorial decision... are you telling the potty-time story or not?
I think the authorial decision is more "is the washroom scene important to the plot?" myself :-)
--
Who needs to be big and burly when you can just apply physics?
[ Parent ]

I think it depends (none/0) (#8)
by janra on Fri Dec 19, 2003 at 11:50:40 AM PST

I mean, it's not so much related to the age of the story or even the reader, but more the overall "feel" of the book. In a lot of cases, describing bathroom and hygiene arrangements would just distract from the story. In some cases, it wouldn't, then the author has to decide if describing it will advance the story or not.

In my novel, bathroom arrangements are occasionally mentioned in passing, usually along with chores, which are occasionally mentioned in passing and once in a while in detail. (I did a pile of character introduction in the first chapter while they were setting up camp, for instance. Setting up camp, in itself, isn't something I needed to show, but it provided a framework for the character building I really needed to do.) Food gathering plays a critical part in the early part of the story, so it is mentioned where relevant.

It depends on the focus of the story, too. If, as in your Twilight and my novel, part of the story focusses on simply learning to survive, then yeah, toilet and food arrangements (and water!) make sense, especially if it's something the main character isn't used to. If mere survival isn't at issue, and the focus is somewhere else, then toilet and food arrangements become more distracting unless worked into the plot (as in, "you phoned while I was in the bathroom" or similar) rather than mentioned just to have the detail in there.
--
Who needs to be big and burly when you can just apply physics?

follow-up on Twilight (none/0) (#10)
by janra on Tue Dec 23, 2003 at 02:30:40 PM PST

I read part of it, and didn't find the bathroom references out of line at all. It didn't bother me at all -- the only thing that I found bothered me was that the girl and the dog acted way too mature for the age you said they were.

Also, what the heck happened to chapters 21--25? It skips from chapter 20 (Christmas) to chapter 26 (Goblins) with nothing in between... which is why I haven't finished reading it yet, I stopped at chapter 20 :-)
--
Who needs to be big and burly when you can just apply physics?
[ Parent ]

Chapters 21-25 (none/0) (#11)
by NewMexicoKid on Mon Jan 19, 2004 at 02:59:15 PM PST

When I was doing NaNoWriMo, I started writing at the beginning but then began
jumping around the story, adding chapters at various points in the story. This
meant trying to guess how many intervening chapters there would be. I mostly
was able to fill things in except for chapters 21-25, which ended up not
existing (without detriment to the story). Since I am planning to rewrite the
whole thing (probably for NaNoEdMo), I decided not to change the chapter numbering.

Thanks for the feedback on the character age. I am planning to make Giovanna older
in the rewrite. She is based on my own precocious seven year old (who is reading
at a near sixth grade level); but I've received feedback from others that Giovanna
seems too mature for her chronological age.

I also appreciate the several comments and suggestions with regards to realism vs.
fantasy. I'll try to apply these to the story as well.

Thanks!
Tim Yao, aka NewMexicoKid NaNo'03: http://writing.teiru.net/twilight Readability analysis CGI: http://writing.teiru.net/fog
[ Parent ]

: characterizing kids (none/0) (#12)
by janra on Mon Jan 19, 2004 at 07:10:51 PM PST

Always a problem :-)
I'm not sure what other people have said as far as specifics for your two main characters, but the main thing that bothered me was that they talked like adults. If you hadn't spent so much time emphasizing her age, I would have thought she was much older, and the dog main character I keep thinking of as an adult character. I mean, there's nothing wrong with a precocious reader having a larger than average vocabulary - I was one of those kids - but when taken as a whole their dialogue is far too mature.
Her actions seem to me to be only a little too mature for her age, and aren't nearly as jarring, although occasionally they too make me wonder just how old this kid is.
For exact examples I'd have to read it again, since it's been a little while now. But I think it's time to finish reading it :-)
--
Who needs to be big and burly when you can just apply physics?
[ Parent ]

My advice (none/0) (#9)
by rstark on Sun Dec 21, 2003 at 09:21:56 AM PST

As stated before in the first comment, it has to do with atmosphere. I agree. I find mood within a story one of the most crucial and frustrating elements. If you're reading a horror novel and you're not afraid, it's lost its purpose. If a thriller is able to be easily put down, then it's not as suspenseful as the author would have hoped.

It's very easy to destroy mood, such as editorializing during critical moments, using lighter(/darker) metaphors during dark(/light) points, or confusing the rising action right before the climax.

Though this comparison is about as far away from children's lit as one can imagine, take erotica books. The real juicy dime novels saved for the housewives. Sex itself can be just as step-by-step methodic as the next task, and if one of those novels wanted to include every one of those details into a love scene, no doubt the mood would be killed for the reader. Sure, maybe it would work in a book that light-heartedly plays on romance or wants to satirize those sorts of books, but an erotica novel going for passion would want to avoid that.

Including the poignant details may or may not work, depending upon the story itself. A Tolkiened world of monsters and fantasy could very well get bogged down with the little real things, and a piece of realistic fiction trying to address or at least symbolize real conflicts may result in a hammed-up work that doesn't emulate reality well enough. Fantasy is really simplifying reality, and turning all the shades of grey into black and white. Confusing it injects back the reality the genre wants to avoid.

Another factor is the target age of the child you want reading the book. The littlest of rugrats just don't have the attention span of older ones, and when it comes down to encouraging children to enjoy reading, it has to be with material that keeps them interested. And the hardest part is that interests vary with the child.

It could also be possible to include details that play directly to kids. Show them something new about a world without toilets that'd make them think. It doesn't have to be so they appreciate what they take for granted, but make them sit back and imagine. If they've got a strong enough image planted, they don't need the book to go back via the main character to remind them of the rocky situation over and over again.

Hope this helps!

Realism vs. more sanitized stories in children's literature | 14 comments (7 topical, 0 hidden)