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Motivation to continue... or... Does anyone read this crap?

by ph0rk
Posted to Art, Musings on Sun Nov 17, 2002 at 10:42:56 AM PST
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I've been tinkering with writing for going on 12-13 years now, and I've written several decent (imho) short stories.  I've also written my share of poetry (bad) and song lyrics, but the real challenge is of course, the novel.

I have started many, but for whatever reason, I rarely get far.  What does it take to complete a work?


Of late, I've been working on a book.  Well, a story, as I have no idea yet of its final length.  I've gone to the trouble of writing bios for important characters, planned out some particularly entertaining scenes of action, and mapped out some major plot points.

I have a final-ish ending in mind, but it looms hundreds of pages in the future.  At present, I am up to 130+ pages, in 10pt times, single spaced.  I've been at this point for a month and a half.  The problem? Motivation of course.

I have no lack of motivation to finish, or shortage of ideas.  What I lack most is feedback.  Now, I'm well aware write-on isn't a place for feedback, and I'm not asking for any, I prefer feedback from those that know me and aren't afraid of insulting me, anyway. And that, I fear, is the problem.  How do you find anyone willing to read 130 pages of text?  I have an editor already, and most things like typographical errors, me falling asleep at the wheel, and the random tense or pronoun confusion are taken care of.  I also edit for content occasionally (or did) when the creative mood wasn't there.  I know that to most thats a huge no-no, but it occasionally sparked some very interesting material.

What I want and can't seem to get is feedback on -content-.  How is the plot going? What do you think about this character?  What does this scene say to you?  And so on.  

I suppose I shouldn't be troubling myself over it, but the lack of this sort of feedback seems to be impacting my motivation, and in a pretty negative way at that.

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Motivation to continue... or... Does anyone read this crap? | 21 comments (20 topical, 0 hidden)
Probably not what you were looking for (5.00/1) (#9)
by whojgalt on Wed Nov 13, 2002 at 06:53:23 PM PST
but you might have a simple case of writer's block and are assuming that feedback is the answer.  It might be, but it also might be a crutch.  Most likely, you already know what is holding you up.

I'm no writing guru by any means, but in my own series of false starts, I've found that when I am jsut spinning my wheels, the reason falls into one of three broad categories:  overplanning, painting myself into a corner, and scale.

I sometimes imagine that I can plan out every detail of plot and character right from the start.  But then, when I actually begin to write, I find that the characters don't want to follow my plan.  If you've created good characters, they take on a life of their own.  You might find that what you had planned for them is not something that such a character would actually do.  As the reality of the story as driven by the characters diverges from the plan, it's easy to find yourself staring at the blank page in a futile attempt to steer it back, only to find that there is no plausible way to do so.

Of course, you will likely have a plot outline that you intend to follow, but it is sometimes best to leave it as loose as possible, and let the characters decide for themselves, so to speak, the details of how they will realize your plot.  Or maybe the character(s) you have created is just not what the plot calls for.  As the writer, you're God, you can change a character to be whatever you want him to be, or what the plot demands.  Ironically, the better you have created him, the harder that is to do.

Painting yourself into a corner is similar to this, but it can happen with plot as well as characters.  You may find that you have created circumstances from which there is no interesting or plausible way to get the the ending you want.  So either the ending has to change, if the current circumstances are compelling enough to demand that, or you have to back out of the corner and redirect the action.

Scale can also be thought of as pacing, though there is a subtle difference between the two.  In the novel I am now attempting (my first try), I fell into this trap.  I believe that every story has a natural size required to tell it properly.  My current idea is one that needs a long novel to tell, which is why I decided to try my hand and writing a novel.  However, forty pages in, I found that I was racing through it at a pace that would finish up the whole thing in 150 pages.  That's not necessarily bad if the story you want to tell can be told in that length, but this one can't.  

The real problem here was that I was glossing over details and character development that needed to be laid out in more detail, probably due to a rush to get to the 'good parts'.  I found myself explaining tons of background material, earlier events, and character issues right before they were needed for some scene. It made the writing into a chore and made each new scene harder and harder to write.

What was really needed was to make this background part of the story - it had to be shown directly to the reader, and revealed a little at a time, rather than explained in one breathless rush just as it is needed.  This, I realized, was why my gut feeling of the length of the story was in the 800-900 page range.  I knew, even before I consciously realized it, that it would take a long time to bring out all the background that the reader would need to really get the story.

I've also written mostly short stories, and find that trying to do a novel is an entirely different mindset - a novel is not simply just a longer short story. The techniques and habits for short stories don't translate well - if at all - to novel writing.

Of course, the opposite can happen for a story that has a shorter natural length.  You may find that you are getting bogged down in details that don't add anything to the story, and that each new word just digs the hole deeper.  

Any of these things make it very hard to get motivated to write that next word, let alone an entire new scene. I think that writer's block is often a symptom of a systemic problem with what you have written already.  It is some part of your subconcious telling you that continuing on is not the right path.  Going back and fixing the problem is necessary before forward progress can continue.  It can mean a very painful process of lopping off big blocks of what you think is great writing.  They may be great, but they may also not be right for the story at hand.  

It is more likely that you can find these things yourself, even that you already know all about them if you just admit it, than that somebody else will be able to point them out to you.  

Nobody knows your story like you do - afterall, it exists only in your head until you successfully get it out on paper. Quality feedback is great for some kinds of problems, but not necessarily for this problem.  Writing is a lonely job, and very likely you are on your own in trying to fix the problem of a story that is stuck in a rut.

that is a distinct possibility. (none/0) (#12)
by ph0rk on Thu Nov 14, 2002 at 12:22:08 PM PST
I'd never really thought about writers block much, i mean we all have our creative days and our not so creative days, but i had assumed that if i had an idea where the story was going, i wasn't blocked.

i could, of course, be quite wrong.

My desire for content feedback could be a crutch, i suppose.  The real issue is i have no formal training, and while i've read a great deal of material in the genre (in this case, fantasy), that doesn't necessarily mean my plot doesn't have holes, my characters are all satisfactorily deep, and my dialogue isn't drab.

I'd use a critque circle of some sort, but, honestly, i'm not quite ready for that level of scrutiny, and i don't think my story is yet, either.

Surely others have had these feelings, and i am very curious to know how they dealt with them.

[ Parent ]

Validation, not motivation... (none/0) (#1)
by Dances with Cactus on Tue Nov 12, 2002 at 10:37:19 AM PST
I think that you have two thoughts going on here, and I don't see that they run together well. One is your supposition that you lack motivation. Another is that you are looking for someone to bounce things off of. Are they related? Is so, how? Perhaps therein lies your answer.

That was editorial. This is topical. I would be happy to read your work and offer my humble critique.

And if you can't submit stuff here for critique, who not? Maybe they don't want to compete with other critique boards. If so, bummer. Let's make a critique circle via email then.

DwC

bouncing ideas (none/0) (#5)
by janra on Tue Nov 12, 2002 at 09:10:01 PM PST

One is your supposition that you lack motivation. Another is that you are looking for someone to bounce things off of. Are they related? Is so, how? Perhaps therein lies your answer.

Excellent point. Having somebody to bounce ideas off of is invaluable, even if they're not a writer and especially if they're not your editor. I'm lucky, I use my boyfriend. :-)

In a lot of cases, simply describing your idea gets it clear in your mind and you can suddenly see new aspects of it that were invisible before. Instant motivation - oh, hey, I can do that in my story! In those cases, your "other person" can just be a wall that makes attentive noises once in a while as you explain your idea.

If you can find somebody willing to take the time to get to know what you've got so far, he can ask intelligent questions after you explain your ideas and push you into figuring out much more. If you're really lucky you might even find somebody who makes suggestions.

Personally, I've found that a lack of motivation is often linked to a lack of ideas, and similarly, after I discuss my ideas with my "wall" I suddenly have an urge to write. Not always, but often enough for me to notice. Too bad most of our discussions happen in the car, and I can't write in the car because I get motion sick.


--
Who needs to be big and burly when you can just apply physics?
[ Parent ]
You probably already know these... (none/0) (#2)
by TheophileEscargot on Tue Nov 12, 2002 at 11:15:36 AM PST
...but what the hell.

Toasted Cheese does critiques of chapters, which you don't really want. Critters does entire novels, but only SF, Fantasy or horror.

But other than that I'm having the same problem with a long story: it's hard to get feedback on plot, pacing and other long-term things.

I can't really think of a solution, other than imposing on friends, which probably means doing a lot of favours in return; or finding a student or someone who can be paid... certainly not an option I can afford. It's a tough one...

How about a critique circle email list? (none/0) (#3)
by Dances with Cactus on Tue Nov 12, 2002 at 05:21:40 PM PST
I just created one on Yahoo groups, here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/our_critique_circle/

Join and share.

[ Parent ]

yahoo groups (none/0) (#4)
by janra on Tue Nov 12, 2002 at 08:57:32 PM PST

Personally, I'm not impressed with yahoo groups. You know, stuff like reports of massive spammage to email addresses subscribed...

If anybody is interested, I have Mailman set up already for other purposes; if you want a mailing list, just ask.


--
Who needs to be big and burly when you can just apply physics?
[ Parent ]
Sounds like a good idea to me. <nt> (none/0) (#6)
by Slothrop on Wed Nov 13, 2002 at 01:37:21 AM PST


[ Parent ]
asking (nt) (none/0) (#7)
by Dances with Cactus on Wed Nov 13, 2002 at 05:07:09 AM PST


[ Parent ]
ok then (none/0) (#8)
by janra on Wed Nov 13, 2002 at 05:42:14 AM PST

Do you want to administer it? Email me with the following information: the list name [A-Za-z0-9-_], the email address you want used as the admin address, and a password. After that, you can set all the preferences for the list, such as public or private archives, membership lists, etc.

I probably won't be joining, because I'm already doing Critters and am quite behind on that, but I'm happy to host it.

Actually, maybe you could ask the critter captain if you could use his scripts to set things up the critters way (which is a very good setup) and again, I'd be happy to host it.


--
Who needs to be big and burly when you can just apply physics?
[ Parent ]
Throw it out there. (none/0) (#20)
by Wordmixer on Sun Jan 19, 2003 at 10:24:51 AM PST
I had to build up a bit of courage for my approach to this problem. I created a group of people (24) who were interested in the genre I was writing and emailed them the chapters as I wrote them. Purposefully writing them in sequence; in exchange for reading my book they get a novel. Some of them I knew well, some were people I met down the pub.
The feedback came which was in some cases accurate, some cases brutal. I knew when I had hit my mark because the emails came flooding in saying that people were desperate for the next chapter.

I would also be happy to offer comment on work as a kind of reciprocal arrangement. The reason I joined this group was to overcome the writer's solitary life.
Benjamin F Jones
[ Parent ]

feedback (none/0) (#11)
by janra on Thu Nov 14, 2002 at 09:07:09 AM PST

While you're correct that Write On! doesn't have a designated system for critiques and feedback, the diaries are your space and if you want to post some of your ideas there and ask for feedback, there's nothing stopping you. Just don't expect feedback, because this isn't a critique site.


--
Who needs to be big and burly when you can just apply physics?
Motivation (none/0) (#13)
by derek on Sun Nov 24, 2002 at 06:22:18 PM PST
Motivation is extremely important and you seem to have ended up in plot prison. Do you really feel like killing half your characters or tearing up the script, then do it (but remember to make a backup first).

I think writers block surfaces when your intuition and playfulness gets stuck behind analysis and overdoses of self critique. You may need to refind the stage where writing becomes a simple unreflected joy. Later you can have your internal editor look at it and kill your darlings. Don't be afraid to trash large portions of your material, do even enjoy it.  "writing is a bloody business" said swedish writer/director Ingmar Bergman in relation to this.

If there is no drive or passion left, there is no story.

Me! Me! (none/0) (#14)
by rapha on Thu Nov 28, 2002 at 03:40:32 AM PST
Without having read the other comments, I can just ask you to send
your 130 pages my way (raphael.schmid@gmx.de) and I'll read them
this weekend. Feedback (on content as well as syntactical mistakes)
is granted ;-)

---
NIETS IS ONMOGELIJK!
I know the feeling... (none/0) (#15)
by BradHeintz on Thu Dec 05, 2002 at 03:48:06 PM PST
I've been in roughly the same position you describe, more than once, and I find that going back and editing, waiting on feedback, and all the other things one might do in an effort to take stock of the project are actually elaborate methods of stalling.

For me (and I suspect for many others), the single hardest thing about writing is writing every day. Habit and routine have never exactly been watchwords in my life, and it's tempting to only write when I feel inspired - it feels good then, it feels right, and when I'm lucky, it can last for days. The problem, of course, is that unless I'm inspired all the time I can't complete anything longer than a two-page op-ed column. Trying to write an extended piece of fiction that way is just begging for disappointment.

The thing I hear most often about Ernest Hemingway (when people discuss his writing, rather than his suicide, drinking habit, or cats) is that he would work on one paragraph a day. He'd spend as long as he needed on that one paragraph, and no more. That story might well be apocryphal (though it would explain the number of shorter titles in his body of work), but it illustrates the discipline of writing.

To overstate the obvious (one of my peculiar talents), a writer must write, and write regularly, even when it doesn't feel like anything worthwhile is coming. Often that feeling is more subjective than factual, but even if you really are producing crap, I've learned the hard way that it's worth it just to be producing something - it's too easy to lose the discipline if you let it slide until you're in the mood. You lose touch with the characters, you rework the plot into a hairball, or otherwise irretrievably damage your mental model of the project.

So by all means, seek feedback, edit, and do all that, but don't stop writing.

And by the way, good luck with the novel.

OK,
- B
http://www.bradheintz.com/ - updated daily

if every day, than how long? (none/0) (#16)
by ph0rk on Thu Dec 19, 2002 at 09:10:07 AM PST

Writing days (which have been scarce recently) were usually as soon as i was free, untill i  slept.

How long do you write, when you do?

[ Parent ]

How long? (none/0) (#17)
by BradHeintz on Fri Dec 27, 2002 at 04:34:49 AM PST
Sorry I didn't respond sooner - I was on vacation and away from my computer.

I try to write a minimum of 20-30 minutes each day - a solid journal entry, if nothing else. I feel like that's the largest amount of time I can commit no matter what, regardless of other circumstances or demands on my time. On top of that, I try to make progress on at least one of my major projects daily. (Currently one novel, one non-fiction book, 3 articles I'm trying to pitch.) Some days it's just adding to the notes or outline, some days it's a hour's worth of research, some nights after work I sit and write for four hours.

The other thing I do, besides trying to get in that 20-minute minimum every day, is to honor the urge to write when I have it - if I feel like I have something to get on paper, I don't procrastinate (or I try not to), I go and do it. Sometimes this requires negotiation with my wife - she's entitled to some of my time, too, and trying to move into writing has been much like taking on an erratically-scheduled, part-time job, at least in terms of the time I try to put in. She's very supportive, though, so it has worked out relatively smoothly.

Your mileage may vary, of course. The more I read about writing, the more different viewpoints I see on this. Earlier this week, I heard one published, short story author on NPR say that this business of writing every day was crap, and does nothing but wear out one's urge to write. I find I profit more from the discipline, and I don't feel like demanding 20 minutes a day is going to burn me out.

OK,
- B
http://www.bradheintz.com/ - updated daily
[ Parent ]

sounds like every topic of discussion in writing (none/0) (#18)
by janra on Wed Jan 01, 2003 at 05:34:12 PM PST

The more I read about writing, the more different viewpoints I see on this.

Yeah, well, every possible aspect of your writing you can change, and some that you can't, are subject to debate, usually with both sides insisting that their way is the only way. Whee - rabid, dogmatic, inflexible people. And they usually don't realise how dogmatic they're being. This is especially noticeable in people who believe strongly in the "rules of writing" like "Show, don't Tell."

If somebody says that the "best way" to improve your writing - skill, output, whatever - is something that goes contrary to what you've experienced, then it's the "best way" for them and not for you, and you should ignore that particular piece of advice. If it's tangential, look at it, try it out, and see if it fits you or not. But just because they're published and you're not doesn't mean their habits will necessarily help you.

*shrug* For example, I for one have never understood why some people have to have little rituals before they start writing. Does that mean if something is missing, they can't write?


--
Who needs to be big and burly when you can just apply physics?
[ Parent ]
rituals (none/0) (#19)
by cachilders on Sun Jan 05, 2003 at 08:28:14 PM PST
i start a new one for every book and ditch it or modify it when i am finished. comfort in routine helps me get right into writing with no distractions, but constant routine makes for the routine.

to the issue at hand,  i would advise anyone stuck in a rut, to identify the rut that is sticking them. for instance, if each day you wake - turn on the computer, fire up the book and see big, empty page 140, then perhaps you could consider jotting something in a notebook independent of the body text. or, if you spend all day thinking of reason not to write, or to edit that which you have written, perhaps getting strait to the writing and ignoring the faults of what is written.

another note, even olympic athletes train. many times they achieve far below expectations, but they do not stop to edit their actions, they only continue to train until they have grown comfortable with their abilities. even then, they continue to train, because there is always room for improvement. writing is no different. you shouldn't show up to the big match unprepared. write every day. write badly, write well, all that matters is that you write, and on the days when you don't care to write - write double, those are the days when you need it the most.

also - if you write with a clear desire to reach the end, you will most likely sacrifice the quality and development of the goods between that and your beginning. write your novel because you love it. write every page, not because it leads to the next place, but because it has to be written. if you approach each sentence like this, like it breathes life into your story, then you will surpass whatever end destination you have set for yourself and begin to wonder how you can close it all up without the thing being five hundred thousand words long.

if you would like you work, or your daily writing exercises critiqued, feel free to use my site (sig). it is built for that sort of thing.
 
 
-c.a.
construct-d
[ Parent ]

good advice (none/0) (#21)
by Anonymous Writer on Thu Mar 13, 2003 at 09:23:12 AM PST
I found this to be very good advice.  I'm in a similar position where I'm not sure if what I write is any good.  I've submitted a short story recently to a contest.  As I told my wife, "even if I get 25th place, I'll know someone didn't think it was crap."  One piece of advice that I can give is that I read something that I wrote over a year ago, and was able to read it as if I hadn't wrote it.  I know when I read something else if I like it or not, but I just can't tell with my own work (usually I'll like it, but won't be sure).  Anyway, re-reading what I wrote awhile ago I found that I really liked some parts of it and could see what parts needed work.  I haven't gone back to what I wrote before, but it did make me feel better about what I was writing now.
Hope this helps.
Scott

[ Parent ]
Motivation to continue... or... Does anyone read this crap? | 21 comments (20 topical, 0 hidden)
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